Secretary Antony J. Blinken on MSNBC Morning Joe with Willie Geist, Jonathan Lemire, Andrea Mitchell, and Mike Barnicle

Antony J. Blinken, Secretary of State

New York City, New York

SECRETARY BLINKEN:  “We’ve got our work cut out for us, but I am confident we will succeed.  The United States has enormous sources of strength.  We’re going to build upon them.  America’s values are noble and powerful, and we will recommit to them.  And America’s leadership is needed around the world, and we’ll provide it, because the world is far more likely to solve problems and meet challenges when the United States is there.  America at its best still has a greater capacity than any other nation on Earth to mobilize others for the better.”

QUESTION:  That was the freshly minted Secretary of State Antony Blinken in his first public remarks to State Department employees on the day he was sworn in nearly four years ago, and Secretary Blinken joins us now near the end here of his term.  Secretary, thanks for being with us this morning.

SECRETARY BLINKEN:  Willie, good to see you.

QUESTION:  So much ground to cover with you, and we’ve got a lot of people who want questions.  But you’re back recently from the Middle East, so let’s start there.  We had the National Security Advisor Jake Sullivan here yesterday sitting in that very chair talking about how encouraged he was about the possibility this time for a ceasefire, with the usual skepticism because you are dealing with a terrorist organization.  Where do you believe we are right now in the hope of getting some of the hostages home at least?

SECRETARY BLINKEN:  Well look, we are encouraged because this should happen, and it should happen because Hamas is at a point where the cavalry it thought might come to the rescue isn’t coming to the rescue, Hizballah not coming to the rescue, Iran not coming to the rescue.  It sought to have a wider war from day one.

In the absence of that, I think the pressure is on Hamas to finally get to yes.  So we should be able to get there, but look, I think we also have to be very realistic.  We’ve had these Lucy and the football moments several times over the last months where we thought we were there, and the football gets pulled away.

So the real question is:  Is Hamas capable of making a decision and getting to yes?  We’ve been fanning out with every possible partner on this to try to get the necessary pressure exerted on Hamas to say yes.  I was in Türkiye meeting with President Erdogan.  We have Bill Burns who’s headed – is already there in the region right now, Jake Sullivan, Brett McGurk.  Everyone is pushing on this.  We want to get it over the finish line.  We want to get the hostages home.  We want to get a ceasefire so that people can finally have relief in Gaza.

QUESTION:  What is the difference, Mr. Secretary, between the ceasefire that came relatively quickly with Hizballah after Israel crippled Hizballah to the north and what’s going on with Hamas?  In other words, how are they different negotiation partners?

SECRETARY BLINKEN:  Look, the ceasefire with Hizballah came up because both sides wanted it.

QUESTION:  Yeah.

SECRETARY BLINKEN:  Hizballah needed the relief.  Israel wanted it too because their objective, main objective, was making sure that they could get a secure buffer area so that people who had been chased from their homes in northern Israel because of the barrage of Hizballah rockets and mortars could go back home.  And the deal that we were able to negotiate with France – getting the ceasefire, getting a commitment from Hizballah to move back, getting the Lebanese Armed Forces to move in and fill that – fill that space – that’s what’s made it – that made it a good deal for everyone.  The Israelis didn’t want to get bogged down in Lebanon, Hizballah had taken a tremendous amount of hurt and pain, so both sides wanted it.

The question now with Gaza, as it’s been pretty much all along, is:  Is Hamas prepared to say yes?  That’s where we are.

QUESTION:  And Mr. Secretary, Andrea Mitchell here.  You just were talking very positively about it.  The National Security was very positive about it.  But in the last 24 or 48 hours you heard from the defense minister, Minister Katz, in the Golan Heights with the prime minister, and he seemed to be raising the stakes, because we were told that Hamas had agreed that Israel could stay temporarily in these two key corridors, which was not the Hamas position for months and months, blowing up potential deals.  But now he seemed to be indicating that Israel would stay longer, this would be a real occupation.  And there were signals coming that wait a second, this deal might not be so possible even before the inauguration.  What do you – what is your read of that?

SECRETARY BLINKEN:  Well first, a lot gets said and a lot gets said for political reasons, and I think you have to work through that and look at what each side is actually prepared to do.

Here’s something else that we know is in Israel’s interest.  It’s in Israel’s interest to find a way to take an off ramp in Gaza because Israel set a couple of objectives after the horrors of October 7th to try to make sure they wouldn’t happen again.  One was to dismantle the military organization of Hamas.  They’ve succeeded in doing that.  The other was to get the leaders responsible for October 7th.  They’ve done that.  Having done that, this is a moment to take that off ramp, but you’ve got to get the hostages back.

The alternative is this: an enduring Israeli occupation of Gaza, which we reject.  And we reject it, among other reasons, because it’s profoundly not in Israel’s interest.  They’d be left holding the bag on what would be a long-term insurgency.  For all of the Hamas militants who have been killed, taken off the battlefield, there are thousands more.  And they have the capacity not to do another October 7th but to make life a living hell for any occupying force in Gaza.  It’s not in Israel’s interest to do that.

But in order for this to work, we have to have an agreement on the hostages and we have to have an agreement on what follows, a day-after plan, a post-conflict plan.  We’ve done a lot of work, Andrea, as you know, on that over the last months with Arab partners, with Israel, with the Palestinian Authority.  And if and when we get this hostage deal over the line, the next thing to do will be to get that plan agreed so we know what fills in and takes the vacuum in Gaza.

QUESTION:  And I have to ask you about Syria because I was with Debra Tice, Austin Tice’s mother, just the other day, and she is pointing out that the U.S. is not on the ground in Damascus.  The Brits are going in.  The French are going in.  It’s obviously a very opportunistic moment but also a very tense moment.  Türkiye is perhaps exerting too much influence and needs to be restrained in terms of U.S. allies in northeastern Syria.

But all that said, do we still think that we can get Austin Tice out?  And she’s appealed now to Vladimir Putin as well as getting a promise from Bibi Netanyahu he won’t strike Syria where Austin Tice might be.  But why can’t the U.S. go in with special forces covertly – maybe you can’t confirm that – and try to find him?

SECRETARY BLINKEN:  So two things, Andrea.  I saw Debra and Mark Tice and the entire family about 10 days ago in Washington just before I went back to the region.  I committed to her, I committed to Mark, I committed to the family that we would leave no stone unturned in finding Austin and bringing him home.

Since then we have fanned out everywhere with every possible source, every possible actor who might be able to get information.  And this involves anyone and everyone who has some relationship with the different rising authorities in Syria.  We’ve been in direct contact with them ourselves.  We have other partners on the ground, and we’re looking at getting on the ground ourselves as quickly as we can.

But the most important thing is this:  Any piece of information we get, any lead we have, we’re following it.  We have ways of doing that irrespective of exactly where we are.  And I can just tell you that this is the number-one priority is to get Austin.

QUESTION:  And we showed you a minute ago Keir Simmons questioning Russian President Vladimir Putin.  He asked Putin if he would help to find Austin Tice.  Here’s that exchange:

“QUESTION:  The mother of an American journalist who is missing in Syria, Austin Tice, has written to you and asked for your help to try to find him because she says that you have such connections with the Syrian Government and former President Assad.  Are you prepared to ask President Assad for information about what happened in Syria to try to find the missing, including this American journalist?”

“PRESIDENT PUTIN: (Via interpreter) Frankly speaking, I haven’t seen President Assad yet after he came to Moscow, but I plan to do so.  But I will have a conversation with him.  We are adults.  We understand 12 years ago a person went missing in Syria, 12 years ago.  We understand what the situation was in place 12 years ago.  Active hostilities were ongoing from both sides.  Does President Assad himself know what happened to that U.S. citizen, to the journalist who performed his journalist duties in a combat zone?  But nonetheless I did promise that I will ask this question to him.”

You have Putin there saying he will ask Assad about Austin Tice.  Assad now, of course, has sought refuge in Moscow.

Mr. Secretary, seeing Putin there, let’s turn to the conflict in Ukraine.  The incoming administration has promised a pretty different approach to that conflict than what you’ve – the Biden team has done.  What more are you trying to do between now and January 20th?

SECRETARY BLINKEN:  Look, I want to make sure that we’re giving the incoming administration and the Ukrainians the strongest possible hand to play going into 2025.  The Ukrainians have to make fundamental decisions about carrying on the fight or looking to negotiate and try to bring this to a ceasefire.  The fundamental question is whether Russia is prepared to do that and to do that in good faith.

But if it moves to that, we want to make sure that the Ukrainians and the Trump administration have the best hand to play to cut the strongest possible deal.  And that means trying to reinforce Ukraine’s position on the battlefield, making sure that it has the money, that it has the munitions, and that it has the mobilized manpower to carry on.  It means continuing to exert maximum pressure on Russia, and Russia is feeling the burden of all of this pressure we’ve exerted with dozens of other countries over the last two-plus years.  Everything that Russia tries to do takes longer, costs more, and is harder to do.  And of course, the losses on the battlefield are extraordinary.  Putin keeps throwing these young men into a meat-grinder of his own making.

But I think President Trump, if he – when he comes in, if he wants to move this to an agreement, we want to  make sure that he can have a strong hand in any negotiation, and that means reinforcing the Ukrainians.

Look, I think, Jonathan, if this gets to a place where there is a ceasefire, and it’s a ceasefire that’s on just and durable terms, that would be a good thing.  But for it to be durable, there has to be some kind of assurance that Russia is not simply going to rest, refit, and reattack in a year, two years, five years.  That’s going to be critical.

If we get that, Ukraine is on a path to success.  It’s a country that is standing strongly as an independent country.  It was not erased from the map.  That’s what Putin wanted to do.  He’s failed.  It can stand strongly on its own feet militarily, economically, democratically.  That’s the best possible rebuke to Putin.  And I know President Trump will want to get a good deal going forward.

QUESTION:  Mr. Secretary, we’ve been talking about and you’ve been living with a region of the world that is one long burning fuse from the Turkish border down to the gate at Gaza and Egypt, and it’s a constant burn every day, every hour of each day.  But in Syria who runs or operates an authority in Syria today in Damascus today?  Are the Russians still in Syria?  Do we know what happened to Assad’s intelligence trove?  What is going on today in Damascus?

SECRETARY BLINKEN:  Right now, Mike, this is a moving target.  You have this group that’s emerged, HTS, supported by Türkiye, that has made this move and has swept across much of the country.  So they’re in the dominancy, but they’re not in the only seat.  You have other factions that are there in different parts of the country.  Different groups have more or less authority.

The real question is this.  We came together with countries around the region in Jordan just a few days ago – and it was Türkiye, it was Jordan, it was Egypt, it was the Gulf states, it was Iraq, it was some European countries as well – to try to see if we could agree on what we expect of any new authority that emerges in Syria.  And we did.  And there’s a strong expectation that if this authority that emerges is going to have the recognition it wants and the support it wants, it’s got to make sure that it respects minorities, that it’s inclusive, that it’s non-sectarian, that it deals with chemical weapons, that it doesn’t become an ally of ISIS, and a number of other things that we set out.

I think the question is this:  As this group HTS is looking at the future – and its leader Jolani has said some very positive things publicly – the real question is we’ve been saying is what does he actually do?  And there are two lessons that I think he has to look at.  There’s the lesson of Assad.  One of the reasons that Assad is where he is, which is in exile out of his country, is because he refused to engage in any kind of inclusive political process to try to put the country back together.  The other reason is because his patrons all became very distracted by problems of their own making that we exacerbated – Russia, Hizballah, Iran.

The other lesson I think he has to look at is the Taliban.  When the Taliban came back into Afghanistan it tried to project a more moderate face.  It turned out that was not the true face of the Taliban.  It remains incredibly isolated around the world.  If these new Syrian forces really try to bring people together, hold the country together, and do it in a way that meets some of the criteria that so many countries put out, then Syria has a chance.  It has a chance for the first time in decades not to be dominated by a dictator, not to be dominated by one sect or another, not to be dominated by an outside power, not to be dominated by ISIS or some terrorist group.  That’s the opportunity.

QUESTION:  And Mr. Secretary, Elon Musk meeting with foreign leaders at the president’s side, traveling with him, living in Mar-a-Lago, jumping into a call with Zelenskyy, going to Paris as the President-elect did – how complicating is this for American foreign policy going forward?  Who’s in charge here?  The continuing resolution has just blown up after just one tweet from him.  And at the same time, what are the conflicts of interest implicit in this because he is one of the biggest defense contractors?  SpaceX now being questioned about whether or not there have been adequate disclosures to the Pentagon, but – in a New York Times report.  How can this work for an American secretary of state going forward in terms of foreign policy?

SECRETARY BLINKEN:  Well first, of course, we have one president at a time.  That president is President Biden.  And until January 20 —

QUESTION:  It doesn’t seem so right now.

SECRETARY BLINKEN:  What we’re actually doing on the ground every single day and trying to move forward on Syria, trying to move forward on getting the hostage deal done, moving forward on Ukraine – that’s President Biden.

At the same time, we are in close communication with the incoming administration.  Countries around the world of course want to know what the incoming team thinks, so it’s perfectly natural on one level for them to have conversations, communications.  And in some ways it’s helpful to us because we want to make sure that, as I said, we are handing over the baton in a way that the next administration can come in and be running at full speed, because the world is not waiting on our transition.  We don’t have the luxury of a timeout.  So it’s really important that this baton passing happens in the smoothest, most effective way possible.  That’s what I’m focused on every day and using every minute that we have to try to make more progress.

Look, we also have an opportunity here to hand off a very different vision and plans to realize that vision for this region, Mike, that you were talking about, the Middle East.  We can see a different future in the Middle East.  We can see a future where Israel is integrated in the region, where it has normalized relations with Saudi Arabia and the other powers that it doesn’t yet have that relationship with, where they’re all allied together, including with a security architecture that we helped build when Iran attacked Israel.  We brought all these countries together in defense of Israel.

That can be the future, and Iran will be isolated and it will have to make fundamental decisions about its future.  But it requires two things.  It requires ending the war in Gaza, and we’re working on doing that.  We’re working on a plan so that Gaza can rebuild after that war and Israel can get out.  And it requires some kind of pathway for the Palestinians to have the state to which they are entitled.  That’s a really hard one right now because so many – these communities are totally traumatized – the Israelis, the Palestinians – but we know that’s also required.  We’ve been working on all of this.  We’re ready to go if we have the opening.  If we’re not, we’re going to hand it off to the Trump administration.

President Trump did a very good thing the first time around with the Abraham Accords with the United Arab Emirates, with Bahrain.  And now the opportunity is there – and I know this is something that the president will be focused on – to broaden that out with the Saudis.  The work that we’ve done on putting in place the elements of that deal, including what we and Saudi Arabia would do together, what they would do with Israel, all of that is now there.  And my hope is we’ll move as far as we can, but it won’t be complete but we’ll be able to hand it over, and then the next administration can decide how it wants to proceed.  But this would be an extraordinary success over multiple administrations to actually change the region and the future for its people.

QUESTION:  On that question, Mr. Secretary, of the handoff, you met with Senator Rubio, I believe yesterday, who will be your successor, it looks like, certainly has bipartisan support as secretary of state.  A lot of people think in the scope of some of the other people who’ve been put forward – we’ve been talking this morning about somebody like Tulsi Gabbard at DNI, Pete Hegseth at Defense, and go down the list – that he is much more acceptable perhaps.

What can you say to people who are genuinely concerned about where the country goes on January 20th, which is under Donald Trump and under some of those people who might be leading incredibly important positions and bureaucracies?  What’s your message to concerned voters about where the country may be headed after the Biden administration leaves?

SECRETARY BLINKEN:  Willie, I can tell you this.  At the risk of doing damage to Senator Rubio, we had a very good meeting, and he is someone I have great respect for.  He is deeply experienced, Intelligence Committee, Senate Foreign Relations Committee.  He knows the world, he knows these issues, and he’s very, very thoughtful about them.

At the same time, Mike Waltz, the incoming National Security Advisor, my friend and colleague Jake Sullivan has spent time with him, and I think we both have real confidence in our successors in being able to carry forward a strong foreign policy for the United States, a country – a United States that’s engaged, that’s leading in the world.

Because here’s what we know:  If we’re not doing that, if we’re not engaged, if we’re not leading, then likely someone else is, and probably not in a way that’s going to reflect our interests and values.  Or maybe just as bad, no one is, and then you’ve got a vacuum that’s going to be filled by bad things before it’s filled with good things.

My sense is Senator Rubio, Mike Waltz, others that we know, see that, believe that, and I think fundamentally so does President Trump.  But far be it for me to prognosticate on where they’re going to go.  All I can tell you is the conversations we’ve had have been very positive, very substantive, and my hope is and expectation is that they will carry forward strong U.S. engagement in the world.

QUESTION:  We will see very soon.  Secretary of State Antony Blinken, thank you for your time this morning and always for coming and joining us over these last four years.  We appreciate it.

SECRETARY BLINKEN:  Thanks, Willie.

QUESTION:  Good to see you.  Andrea Mitchell, thank you as well.  Very happy holidays to you.

QUESTION:  Same to you.